Alta White (Scam)

thank you submiting

Please "anonymous" don't include me in you hearsay. I ain't being paid...I saw this "scam" heading on a Gooogle search after just re ordering...and felt conscience bound to make a posting. Have you tried the product ...given you have posted ratings...cheers

EDMONTON -- The United States Federal Trade Commission has filed a complaint against an Alberta-based online business for allegedly defrauding customers of hundreds of millions of dollars.


The action against Jesse Willms, who has an office in Edmonton, and 10 companies he controls was filed May 16, 2011.


It seeks to stop the alleged illegal practices and force the defendants to repay customers.


The U.S. agency, which deals with consumer protection and harmful anti-competitive business practices, claims over $450 million was gained through fraudulent means. The allegations have not been proven in court.


The alleged fraud involved luring customers with free or risk-free offers of products, such as acai berry weight-loss pills and teeth whitener, as well as free credit reports, access to government grants and a work-at-home scheme, said FTC spokesman Frank Dorman.



Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/accuses+Edmonton+online+firm+million+fraud+scheme/4824383/story.html#ixzz1NEEflCDS

The only way out is to cancell your card. If you do a stop payment, they will use another name. I know this section shows a name and address but this scammer has like 86 teeth whiting scams going. If you explore this site you will see that. Not only that but a lot of these sell memberships and so you never know what name they will use. Your bank or card people evidently know this or they would not have said that if they use another name, they can't stop it. I tried to put a stop payment on and they billed me under another name with another amount. I got my money back because it was not authorized after the first charge but what a pain in the butt. Good luck

Really Bob ? And am I supposed to believe Kim Kardashian buys free trials of whitening products from the internet? - you fail to tell people when pointing them to this convenient hyperlink that within 14 days of ordering a fee of £70-£80 will be taken from their credit card accounts for a "lifetime membership" of the product.

I scam them this is what the get for robbing people I
placed my other with a ten dollar gift card and got my
teeth whitener only cost me shipping plus I have cash
left ha ha ha ha they won't be getting no more money.

Try contacting your credit card company ASAP to dispute the charge. Arrange for a call to the fraudulant company with your credit card company on the line, too. This worked beautifully for a fraudulant experience I had with a trial offer. Be persistent and do not give up! They are robbing you!

did you manage to put a stop to this.i have had money taken from my account by the same names you mentioned.

the same has happened to me.several different companies like sup*white teeth and sup*smilebright and prewhite. i will now contact my bank to ask them how to stop payments to these tricksters . have managed to stop everbright smiles without too much trouble.-or so i think!will let you know if i find any more out.

this has happened to me aswell ,only thing i can say is cancel your card asap these people will carry on taking money using other bogus names.its about time banks got more involved because when i ordered the item i used my debit card to pay for amount being just for postage a couple of quid not £129 which was taken out.recieved teeth whitening with just a sheet of paper with a few numbers on which i still dont know what they are not really a confirmation note which should really be enclosed .if it was the banks that were beind fiddled something would be done about it .if anybody can shed some light on getting money back i will be very thankful times are hard enough without things like this happening.

Interesting that two posts from Holland recommend this product. It is of course a scam and I have been cought out like the others. Tommy is right - you have to report your card stolen in order to get it blocked - don't just cancel it - that will not stop any further debits.

I have contacted Lloyds TSB to get the charge reversed, and hope they accept it.

No one deserves this. Yes we should have read but you don't offer a free trial to try a product if it is really a memership. Not only that but most people don't get the crap until AFTER the trial is up. And if this is so great, why the hell can't you cancell it? Why is it so hard? And why do they continue to take money out? They are frauds that have found a loop hole to hide behind.

u twat!
yes, one should be more observant of these things..... but people like u saying things like that only encourages this sort of operation!
u are siding with fraud u idiot!

I don't see how I am siding with this fraudulant company. Most of the people here tried calling numbers that are never answered, told they agreed with something they didn't understand or was not clear, or had to cancell credit cards to keep this company from taking more money out. And before you call me an idiot, you should learn to spell. You is not spelled u. You should learn to read as well. My questions are legitimate and in no way encourage or side with any of the 80 some odd fraudulant companies offering the same thing. While I am on it, my dentist recommends Crest White Strips. I looked and it contains the same type of stuff, only gentle and cheaper. I also found another product for $10 at Walgreens with a big tube of the same type of gel, the mouth tray and great instructions.

Hi Meri - I think he was referring to Janus's contribution. I managed to stop any further charges by finding the phone numbers and cancelling. They sounded so reasonable and helpful so I did not castigate them for setting the whole scam up as a trap for the unwary and trusting buyers. People are not inclined to read conditions when ordering on line from, say, Amazon.

I note that on the msn site there are still ads with the killer condition that you will be enrolled if you do not cancel. I wrote to our Daily Telegraph to ask if they knew about this entrapment but have had no reply.

Another mug who has fallen for these scamming bastards! £320 from FOUR different Companies, oversee charges etc etc! I used my debit card and the fraud line in your bank will cancel and change your debit card number and also under their indemnity insurance refund all the money you have been ripped off for

you thought is marvelous but actually i am suffering from yellow and week teeth can you have any idea about it if you have any idea about this then reply because it is very essential part because:-
a)It is best part of body
b)part of beauty
c)healthy teeth required for best
d) to prevent tooth decay and gum disease
how this one product i want your suggestion
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/alta-white-teeth-whitening-review-does-alta-white-work-1989826.html

Yup, me too. I didnt complete the transaction and never got the product....and have just seen they have taken £ 176 out of my account when Im overdrawn. Grrrrrrrrrr.
No answer tel numbers, no email addresses etc GRRRRRR
And my bank wants ME to cancel it....errr....HOWWWWWW?

Can we do something ? I have sent recorded delivery by email as proof to bank that I AM trying to stop them and have cancelled my card (really what I needed) but now I am waiting scared stiff incase I see MORE of my needed and hrad earned money taken.
MASSIVE GRRRR. I could kill. Evil S*its!!!

AND NO-ONE SEEMS TO CARE. WHAT A CORRUPT WORLD THE IDIOTS HAVE VOTED FOR SINCE 1990. THEY OPENED PANDORAS BOX AND US GOOD CITIZENS PAY....

This company needs to be shut down and removed from the web and the only way that might happen is if enough people get together to do it.
As one of those caught by them I am trying to get as many others who have also been stung to contact me. If we get enough we may be able to convince a law firm to issue a class action suite against them. I'm disabled and cannot afford to pay for solicitors but if enough of us get together we may be able to get one who will do it on a no win no fee basis.
So if you have been caught please get in touch - [email protected]
I look forward to hearing from all of you- I know there are thousands of you out there.

What should we do to stop them from stealing our money ?

you are talking out of your ass i got money stolen gest before christmas i got two kids and a car to run these bastards are crooks

These people are thieves. All thieves.

Hi Danny

You must email of phone them and tell them to CANCEL any membership you have with them as even though you've cancelled your card they can still draw against your account . Ask for a cancellation notice to be sent to you by email so you have the proof.

For Altawhite : 0018669288043 or email: [email protected]

For PremiumWhite or DazzleWhite: 0018669892686 or email: [email protected]

Hi Cath,
I have also got caught out and have been trying to cancel AltaWhite and a second company, which I think is Premium White, but the website has changed so I cannot double check. Tell me, how do you mean that they can keep 'drawing on Danny's account', inspite of cancelling the card? I have cancelled my card, and on your advice, I will email both those companies... no money has been taken yet, but I do want to cancel but it is very hard to work out how and where to do so... thanks for your advice.

V

Hi Victoria

By purchasing the offer you automatically get signed up for a repeat order every month which gives the companies authorisation to take out whats called a subscription or recurring payment - This seems to be anything from £30-£80 per company. This money will automatically be taken out of your account by a variety of different named companies all seem to be off shore and not American (the four companies that took money from me were in Cyprus) so cancelling your card is not enough.
Ring your bank - they can do nothing for 30 days but there after can recall any money taken from your account.
Get cancellation notices from each company and keep a close watch on your account - ie every day for the next month or so.
Any withdrawls you see which you do not recognise call the bank and ask they be claimed back.
If you don’t receive the goods (I didn’t) you can also claim the initial order amount back through whats called Chargeback if you used a credit or visa debit card.
It's a bit of a pain but if you keep on top of it you will get your money back and stop any further withdrawls.
They work on the premise that for every one person who does make a fuss in the first month and stop the payments there are 2 people who don’t and by the time they realise it they’re down £200ish.
Good luck!

Thanks so much Cath - I really appreciate your comments and advice and will act on it.
I have emailed the Alta White people, but haven't received anything from the second lot. I think I used my credit card, so the companies won't be able to access my bank account as they haven't got the info - but I will watch both statements really carefully.

Kind regards,

Victoria.

Hi can anyone please tell me how to cancel alta tooth whitening.
i sent for the trial which i am hugely regreting and received it but opened the packaging so cant return it. but they never sent me an email and i can't get hold of them. please can someone tell me what email or website to go onto so i can cancel to stop further money being taken out. have been stung for 180.00 so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please help

Hi Raj

Contact Details:

For Altawhite : 0018669288043 or email: [email protected]

For PremiumWhite or DazzleWhite: 0018669892686 or email: [email protected]

If your phoning remember it California and leave it till late afternoon.

26.NOv.09.
Hi Andrew,
I was same as your situation, except I didnot even recieved the Allta white,and I already been charge ove£180, and I just recieved an e-mail to congratulate me being life time members,I have tried to gone on the site to cancel my membership, but can't get through, and my credit Card Co. also said that even I cancell my card, this won't be able to stop them to take money out of my account, how ture is this? Can anyone help me on this.

Helen

I'm in exactly the same boat - I ordered bothPremium white and Alta White on the 17th November thru an advert in the on line Sun so didn't check as I assumed it was real. I have received nothing from either company and yesterday was charged £81 Alta White. I rang the bank 1st and cancelled my card (waste of time I now know) and thought it would be OK but apparently even when you do that they still can take money from your account as you have agreed to an automatic subscription and the bank cannot stop the charge! I have managed to talk to Customer Services for Premium White and have been sent a cancellation email but they did tell me the money may well be taken out of my account as it’s too late to stop it. (SUPRISE SUPRISE)

I have asked the bank if I close my account would that work and they have said no as the bank would honour the payment and come after me for the bad debt - it's horrendous and I don't know how to stop it. The bank have issued cancellation notices against each company but they take 31 days so your not covered there.

The bank did say however that if the products don't turn up (and I suspect they won't as its been three weeks) you can try to claim your money back through the Visa chargeback system as both companies would be in breach of their contractural obligations. All banks should be able to do this (but I'm not holding out much hope of seeing any money returned as it sound as if the company is one big moving target)

I'm not sure if they continue to take money every month. Even though the Ts and Cs says a one off payment I don't trust it - does anyone know? is it a one off scam (sorry rip off) or does it go on? - really stressing me out as I hope this is as bad as it gets and I'm just going to be stung for the £190 and no more - any ideas???

03 Dec 09.
Hello Cath,
Thanks for the info , as I have pass the 30 days cancellation period, I wonder can I still cancel the membership(as they call it) would you be kind enough to gave me the Co Contact No or address, On my visa card show the company call Nutralogy and beutyclub,also my credit card co gave me a telphone:01702 271 408 to ring for compliant,but I have tried many many time and hold for hour ,and I still have not got through,I really angry with myself to fell for the scam, but at same time that I do not know what to do to get out of this.please Help.

Hi Helen

For Altawhite I phoned: 0018669288043 (at 5.30 pm) and asked that I be taken off their membership programme and as I'd not received any product from them I would like a refund. They sent me an email this morning (email address: [email protected]) stating that the "membership" payment was a one time only payment but non refundable. I responded with the following:

"Thank you for your speedy response to my telephone query of yesterday 17:39 GMT. As I pointed out to your customer services operator I have never received my "risk-free* trail" products for Alta white as I signed up for on the 17th November. Nothing has been sent to me as yet and I placed my order with you over 16 days ago.

I understand the terms of this offer but cannot begin to accept that a "lifetime membership" should be invoked if the product trial was never sent in the first place.

I quote from your Terms and Conditions:

"We are so confident that you'll love the product that we are offering you a 14 DAY RISK FREE TRIAL where you will receive a 1 Month Supply of Product and only be charged shipping & handling today. At the end of your RISK FREE TRIAL, you will be enrolled into our Membership Program"

By definition you state that your risk free trial is the receipt of a "1 month Supply of Product" I have never received this product and therefore you are not fulfilling your part of our contract.

I wait for your response, but will be seeking legal advice over this matter.

For PremiumWhite I called 0018669892686 and got an email address: '[email protected]' and sent them a similar mail although they have cancelled my membership I again want a refund.

Don't know if this will get a response but I'm going to see this one out. I have been to see my Bank Manager today. To be honest told me no more than I already know but I double checked all companies (Nutrology, Vibrant Beauty, Provillus and Beauty Club - who have all taken money from me) had been sent a cancellation notice. Once this is in place the bank can stop any further payments.

The bank has said that they cannot claim the money back as a dispute or as fraud as I did sign up to the product under their Ts and Cs but as I said before - I believe that if you have not received the product from the trial in the first place THEY ARE IN BREACH of contract and therefore after a 30 day period the banks should be able to get the money back through the chargeback scheme or I will take legal action.

I know its stressful but try not to worry too much. Get the bank to send the notices. Send them an email, wait for their response (which I'm sure will not be helpful but who knows they may offer a refund!!) and then insist the bank help you get you money back as a consumer who has paid for something that never actually turned up.

Let me know how you do - I'll keep you posted (:

Hi Cath,
Thanks so much for reply me so quick, as I will take a day off tomorrow tried to sort this mess out. And I will let you know the out come, thanks again,I really gradful for all the detail that you have gave me.

Hi.Cath,
As I mentioned that I have took a day off tried to sort out my mess, and I have rang the Alta White on Friday, But I have been told that they have no record of my even after I have gave them my order No,and he told me that if I have ordered from dazzle White, then they are no longer assoicate with them, so I could not do any thing, unfortunaly after that I took ill, I was in bed the last few days, anyway I felt much better to-day, so I have send an e-mail to premiumwhite asking for cancellation, now I just hoping will get some answer soon, I 'll keep you update if I have any news .
Thanks again for your help.

Hi Helen

I got a cancellation notice from Dazzle white this weekend (didn't even order from them!!) their email address is: [email protected]

Just for your own piece of mind send them a cancellation request as well so you've got both (think premium and dazzle are one in the same but better safe than sorry)

I'm now waiting eagerly for my 30 day period to be over before I can try to claim back the money through the visa charge back system. I'll let you know if I'm successful. Take care.

Hi, Cath,
Hoped that you have a nice X'mas and the New Year.
I did not think that I have a nice X'mas, as I was still keep thinking that I have Lost nearly £300.
Just quick update to you, after I have wrote to them stated that they have not full fill their contract, they have send me a product next day, and stated that they will charge me one last time, as they also send me a confirmation of cancellation, since then I have send the cancellation notice to my credit card Co,whom told me that I can only claim my money if they take any money out after the cancellation date, I must admit that I felt so tired mentally, I have to see that is a lesson I have learn, although it is expensive one,also I dont think I would ever buy anything on the net again.

Hi,
I am sorry that I have to disagreed with you, as I was only order Free Trail to try, as they stated that I only need to pay S/H $7.50, But todated I have not recieved the Product and had been charged:|£7.50 £5:00,£83;00, and I have been told another Payment will be collect soon, so I believe that is scam.

Thank you Jenny, you saved me a lot of money, I fell for the advert and ordered the 'free' trial, 'only pay S/H' that turned out to be 11.88$,just to post 90gr from Scotland, it would cost just 1.39 Euro from Spain to Scotland, anyway, after reading your comment I cancelled my card, the same day I received a message from the thieving B*&****s saying they had tried to collect 79$ from my account but it had been rejected, this was despite me TWICE clicking that I did not want any further supply, they tried again a few days later and sent me another message asking me to check my credit card, why are they allowed to get away with this?

You have made my day. Glad i've made a difference. Hope this helps loads more not to be conned too. Have a good day. Jenny

Hi Simone
Have you sorted it all out yet? I've just been mailing Helen (look at our mails under Andrew Austrailia) as to what I've/am doing it might help you.

Let me know how you do

Hi, Tommy,
Thanks a lot for you help, as I was just stuck right in it , don't Know what to do, I just rang my credit card company this morning, tried to cancell my card but I have been told that it will not stop the Con' commpany to take my money, is this true? PLease I need Help!

I too have been scammed , Did'nt receive the trial products so thought the order had not went through , the bank RBS gave me a phone number to call as i never received a comfirmation e-mail to say the order had gone through (should have known , when that did'nt happen ) when i called the number i got a recorded message telling me call between 8am and 8pm mountain time, my god i thought when is mountain time Lol well after dialling throughout the day i got through at Half 4 GMT after 20 minites of arguing and being told they would resend the items , i just about managed to decline politely i was given a cancelation number, 2 months have past and im out £230 and a £5 pound monthly direct debit out of pocket and that was even with a blocked card. RBS gave me another cancelation form to fill in and a chargeback form , i am now awaiting the results , i think that because thousand have been scammed we will be able together to shut theese people down and Name and Shame them

Update: Before my card was cancelled they have taken just over £200 from my account! I cannot put in a claim to my bank for 30 days to make sure I don't recieve any further products from them. They auto subscribed me for a further 4 products and cannot be cancelled. The other company dazzle white, I managed to cancel but Alta White won't let me cancell online, have not replied to my emails and have no working phone numbers! To say this is a scam doesn't even come close. Shame on America for not doing anything about an Amercan company scamming people all over the world! America's recession will be over quickly at this rate, as the rest of us idiots are paying for it!

ive just cancelled the product (alta white) and transfered all my money into saving account. does this will make sense? do i will still be charged? do i have to cancel my debit card? if i were to re-send the product to them, will i still be charged?

help, i feel very much uncomfy now.

Hiya,

If you have ordered both products and received them then you have to send both products back unopened. Even then it's not guaranteed that they won't take money off your card. When you cancel both products they still autosubscribe you for other products. I was autosubscribed to 4 other products! So you mught be better off cancelling your card anyway. If you cancel your card tell them it's lost so they cancel it right away and no more money can be taken.

Good Luck!

ive just cancelled off my card this morning, and i feel a LOT relief now to the extend i don't even bother to re-send the trial product (if i were to received them in a few days). i just couldn't imagine if 200GBP were "robbed" from my account! goshh!

nway, thanks!!

Hiya Edinburgh,

I'm so glad you cancelled your card. I am glad I have managed to help someone through my own mistake. I have a family and losing £200 this close to christmas was a nightmare. I'm still fighting to get my money back. Thanks for letting me know how you got on, it's made my day to know I've stopped them robbing from someone else.

You are very welcome :)

being a sponsored student here in Edinburgh, losing 200GBP is such a great lose to me. that's why i quickly rushed to the bank to cancel off my debit card once i knew that this is all are actually a scam.

am sure, everything is settled now and they can't simply take my money as i am now waiting for my new card.

and once the product arrived, i dun even bother to send them off back since i dun think i will have enough time to do so. (and won't be spending a single pence on the shipping cost). do u think this is OK?

anyway, million of thanks again lesley. your help is very much appreciated.

God bless! :)

These people don't care where you are from (they run this scam world wide!), they don't care how poor you are. All they want is money and don't care about the people they steal it from. If you receive any products from them you can keep it because they cannot take any money from you when your card is cancelled. You have nothing more to worry about. I wouldn't bother sending it back and paying the shipping.

My partner is a student too, when they took the money from our account we were left with nothing in the bank. Am still trying to get my money back from the bank.

I'm just glad I managed to help someone that cannot afford to lose that amount of money.

You are very welcome.

Take care :)

thanks lesley. Your reply give me so much comfort (and relief) now and i seriously don't want to spend my allowance on the shipping cost. Such a wastage.

Thanks again, and wish we can meet some time. I'm planning to go to Glasgow sometime after the exam. ;)

Merry Christmas dear friend!

cheers.

Hi there, Did you ever get your money back or fully cancel the subscription? Thanks

Hi Natalie, this only happened to me on Saturday so I went to the bank today. because the £80 is earmarked not cleared I have to wait until thursday to phone the bank up. It clearly is a con because they change your 30 days to 14 when they debit your account with the shipping/handling fees. This is how they get away with it most of the time. you basically do not have a leg to stand on that is why no phone number.

It took about an hour an me threatening to close my account completely before a manager took me into the back office where she phoned on my behalf (Oh I was on the phone to card services who was telling me there was nothing I could do and I would just be kept on being charged £80 every 30days. She said to send via post recorded delivery and resolve it that way PAH I said thanks very much but I'd rather close my account and bank elswhere.)

So the manager took me out back has put a stop on any transactions on my account closed my old card and now I have a new one on its way, because you gave the old card number it will void any old transaction setups including direct debits. Pain to re-setup but worth £80 per month.

I have been given the number to ring on thurs to get my money back but thats wait and see and for the bank charges she took them off right away so I am part way there getting it sorted but hey no refund for the £20 0845 number I had to ring or the time and inconvenience.

But hey Got one back on the con artists yippee

will update on thurs to let you know how it goes but its another 0845 number!!!! spend £40 to get £80 back!!!!!! LOL

ive g0ne through the same problem. so, by cancelling my debit card account will resolve this problem?

help!!

Hi Tommy,

I managed to get a hold of Alta White. It is best to get through in the evening, as tried calling numerous times in the afternoon with no luck.

I originally spoke to a Megan and explained my predicament. She advised me she would e-mail their reimburstment department and I would receive an e-mail within 72 hours. No suprise but i DIDN'T get that e-mail so had to call back again. The next advisor I spoke to was very rude and basically implied that I was stupid for NOT reading the T&C's correctly & they WERE NOT REFUNDING THE £80! I went back onto the site and there IS a Satisfaction Gaurentee that states "At the end of your RISK FREE TRIAL, you will be enrolled into our Membership Program for just $119.93, non refundable". To be honest I only saw the SHIPPING & HANDLING FEES OF $9.94 and DID NOT notice the gaurentee - SHAME ON ME!!

I specifically requested that my details are fully removed from their system as I do not want to hear from them again and I was assured of this. However, on the 22.11.09 I received an e-mail prompting me to re-order the 30 free trail as it was time to do so! I am going call them back tomorrow (26.11) to ensure I do not receive any more e-mails from them.

I have cancelled my card but have been advised by the bank that if a genuine contract is in place Alta White could be eligable to receive my NEW CARD DETAILS. That's why i'm getting back onto them to ensure they have fully cancelled the lifetime contract. I have only had the 1 payment debited from my account & I do not want another!

Hope you manage to get yours sorted but I think we can kiss goodbye to the original fee taken.

Natalie

seriously? i thought by cancelling the card, everything will be over?

Hi Edinburgh, I would try to contact them to cancel the subscription. Or you could e-mail [email protected] and make the request by asking for your CANCELATION ID REFERENCE.

I e-mailed them last night, no reply as of yet but will update as soon as they respond.

Hope this helps.

Natalie

I did so, but the product is not yet arrived (since 20th Nov) and I wonder if they really delivered the product to me as I directly cancel the subscription once I knew it's only a scam. I did even cancelled my debit card the minute i knew it's only a scam.

Anyway, thanks. Much appreciated!

Got my card statment today- the b.....'s have been takin money out of me, really not happy at mo, but try calling 0808 120 1987- i have twice now and they claim to have cANCELLED MY MEMBERSHIP. THE THIEVING GITTS>>>>>>>>>

I am another unsatisfied "customer" who has paid for a trail offer but I am now having more money taking out my account. Go to your bank and let them know of this scam, we must be able to file a fraud claim!!! Spoke with someone today at my bank and this is very common and they have policies in place to deal with it, all else fails cancel your bank account!

tERMS AND CONDITIONS WERE REVEALED ONLY AFTER i HAD SUBMITTED MY REQUEST FOR A FREE TRIAL OFFER . lEARNING THAT i WOULD BE CHARGED £6 FOR DELIVERY OF THE "FREE" PRODUCT ANDWOULD BE CHARGED OVER $100 FOR A LIFETIME SUPPLY i IMMEDIATELY TRIED TO CANCEL AND HAVE CONSISTENTLY HAD EVERY ATTEMPT REJECTED . aNY SUGGESTIONS HOW TO ESCAPE FROM THIS SCAM?

Hi all,
yeah I got scammed too with Alta white, it came up on my credit card as billed from NUTRALOGY, they've just taken another £84 from my card and I never asked for the product. They'll keep sending out each month till you'cancel'. Problem is it's virtually impossible. I've got my bank heavily involved and told them it's a scam and I can't contact anyone to cancel. They looked into it and said they'll send me a letter to sign which will cancel it as far as the bank are concerned. If any more products arrive after that chat with the bank, they'll take on the responsibility to refund the money directly. So hopefully I'll just have the posttage charges to date and lessons learned! I hate scammers!!